-----Original Message-----
From: Yu Morita
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 9:02 PM
To: Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

For example, when border-width property has an integer, it has to have a unit (e.g. px, pt, etc.).
たとえば border-width プロパティ、これは必ず px とか pt とかの単位を持たなくちゃならない。
Since an integer without any unit is an invalid value, based on the CSS1/CSS2 spec, the medium width (the default value) should be applied.
CSS1 を見ても CSS2 を見ても単位ナシの値は不正だし、だったら無視されてデフォルトの medium が適用されなきゃおかしいよな。
However, IE5 seems to interpret it as the value with a pixel unit omitted conveniently. Isn't this violating the CSS spec?
けど IE5 は px 単位の値として扱ってる。CSS のスペックなんて眼中無いってこと?

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Chen
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:25 AM
To: Yu Morita; Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: RE: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

This is almost certainly for compatibility with poorly-authored web pages.
文法を知らない制作者がつくったページでも見れるようにしてるだけさ。

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:50 AM
To: Raymond Chen; Yu Morita; Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: RE: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

Yes, that is correct.
その通り。

-----Original Message-----
From: Yu Morita
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 2:52 PM
To: Yu Morita; Chris Wilson; Raymond Chen; Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: RE: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

Both CSS1 & CSS2 specs give the writing style like "border-width: 3" as an example of inputting an invalid value.
CSS1 でも CSS2 でも単位ナシの数値は認められちゃいない。
Especially, CSS2 spec states that a unit is required. (*See below)
特に CSS2 では数値には必須だっていってる。下に引用しとくから読んでくれよ。
Considering that, is it reasonable to take Raymond's comment as "IE5 is obviously violating CSS specs." ?
それと、ちょっち確認しとくけど、Raymond のコメントは IE5 は文法違反の確信犯ってな主張だよな?

4.2 Rules for handling parsingerrors

...
To ensure that new properties and new values for existing properties can be added in the future, user agents are required to obey the following rules when they encounter the following scenarios:
...

• Illegal values. User agents must ignore a declaration with an illegal value. For example:
  ...

  IMG { border-width: 3 }   /* a unit must be specified for length values */
  

(taken from CSS2 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/syndata.html#parsing-errors )

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Chen
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 12:59 AM
To: Yu Morita; Chris Wilson; Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: RE: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

I can't believe we're having this argument. Compatibility is job one. IE does countless "strange" things in order to be compatible with Netscape and with existing web pages. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
信じられねーよ、こんなことについて言い争ってること自体。互換性（Compatibility）が第一なんだよ。IE ってのは Netscape とか、その他現存の Web page との互換性を保つために数え切れないほどの変なことをしてんだよ。こんなの氷山の一角に過ぎない。
I would say that "IE obviously bends over backwards to make the vast majority of web pages display as the author intended."
言うなれば、大多数の Web page を作成者の意図通りに表示させるため、IE は明らかにあらゆる努力を惜しまない。ということ。
It's not that IE is intentionally interpreting a *valid* CSS file incorrectly. If you can find a *valid* CSS file that IE displays incorrectly, then then you'll have an argument.
別に IE は有効な CSS ファイルを意図的に間違って解釈しているわけじゃない。もし IE が不正確に表示する有効な CSS ファイルを見つけることができたら、そのときはキミの勝ちだよ。
Let's put it another way: If IE enforced the error paths of the spec strictly, http://www.zdnet.com/ would not display correctly.
言い方を変えればこうなる： もし IE がスペックのエラーパスを厳格に施行していたなら、http://www.zdnet.com/ はちゃんと表示されなくなる。

Here's some code from ZD Net's home page:
これが ZD Net のホームページのソース コードの一部：

            <DIV STYLE="position:relative;top:0;left:0;width:610">
            ...
            <SPAN ID="rightArea" style="position:absolute;left:610;top:0;width:170;z-index:100;
                        background-image:url(http://www.zdnet.com/graphics/extra-blk.gif)">
            ...
            <SPAN ID="rightAd" style="visibility:hidden;position:absolute;left:625;top:245;width:151;z-index:101;
                        background-image: url(http://www.zdnet.com/graphics/homepage/extra/ads/bigadbox.gif);background-repeat">

Wow, look at all those unitless numbers.
わお、見てみろよ、この単位なしの数字たちをさ。
I'm sure customers would love it (as well as Ziff Davis) if we broke the ZDNet home page.
ZDNet のホームページをぶち壊したら、さぞかしお客は喜ぶだろうね。（もちろん Ziff Davis もね）

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 4:02 AM
To: Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: RE: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

Let me wrap this one up. According to the CSS1 and CSS2 specifications, unitless numbers are in general not legal (in a few places, like as a value for line-height, they are, but they have a special meaning). That is irrelevant to our implementation - they are rampant in current content, and we will continue to support them, even though it is technically illegal. If you don't want illegal CSS, don't use them -slapping a 'px' on the end will make them legit.
俺がまとめるよ。CSS1 と CSS2 のスペックによると、単位なしの数字は一般的に不正だ（いくつかの箇所、例えば、line-height の値なんかは単位なしでも合法だけど、それらは特別な意味がある）。しかし、それはわれわれのインプリメントとはまた別問題だ。 −− 現在、単位なしの数字は氾濫しているし、われわれもそのサポートを続けるさ。厳密には規格違反だとしてもね。もし不正なCSSが嫌なら、使わなきゃいい。 −− だいたい、ケツに "px" をくっつけときゃ正当な値になるだろ?

-----Original Message-----
From: Tantek Celik
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 7:47 AM
To: Chris Wilson; Discussion Alias for Internet Topics
Cc: HTML Writing Discussions; W3C Cascading Style Sheets
Subject: Re: It seems to me IE5 misunderstands CSS spec ... ?

>If you don't want illegal CSS, don't use them -slapping a 'px' on the end will make them legit.

And if you want to keep using unit-less illegal CSS (or any other quirky non strict w3c standards compliant html/css) in your content and expect it to work, *DO NOT* use a strict DTD doctype declaration in your html documents, e.g.
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN">
それと、そんなに単位なしの数値を使った不正な CSS ってやつが憎いんだったら、おまえの HTML 文書から Strict DTD の宣言を取っ払っちまえよ。